Le Dialogue des 2 Sages

[Lilou]

Je ne sais pas si c'est ici que je dois poster ça mais comme cela touche à la littérature je me suis dit que peut-être
Sinon, virer ce post ailleurs, je serais point vexée


Le Dialogue des Deux Sages :

Existe t-il en français une autre étude de ce texte, que celle de Guyonvarc'h ???? ou des trucs machins à ce sujet que je puisse trouver quelque part ??? Merci d'avance

[Rónán]

Si tu ne connais que le francais, t´auras du mal a trouver ce que tu veux sur la littérature irlandaise... Enfin je dis ca comme ca...


Rónán

[mikhail]

Lilou,

La connaissance de l'irlandais n'est pas très fréquente en France... Celle du gaélique ancien, à un bon niveau, rarissime.

Le texte de Guyonvarc'h est probablement la meilleure traduction actuelle possible de l'unique texte druidique connu. Lecture difficile garantie.

Que signifie au juste ta question ?

mikhail

[Fergus]

Lilou,
Oui, pourquoi cherches-tu une autre édition de ce texte difficile ? Aurais-tu découvert des fautes de traduction ? Les commentaires te semblent-ils trop pauvres, ou stupides ? Les écrits de Guyonvarc'h ne sont pas vérités d'Evangile, mais encore faut-il les avoir lus, et étayer sa critique éventuelle...
Il n'y a jamais eu aucune autre traduction française du Dialogue des Deux Sages.
On trouve facilement la version anglaise, traduite de l'irlandais ancien (ou moyen, Ronan rectifiera) par Whitley Stokes.

[Fergus]

D'ailleurs, la voici (elle est dans le domaine public) :

THE COLLOQUY OF THE TWO SAGES
(Book of Leinster)

trad. Whitley Stokes


I. Adnae, son of Uthider, of the tribes of Connaught, was the ollave of Ireland in science and poetry. He had a son, to wit, Néde. Now that son went to learn science in Scotland, unto Eochu Echbél (Horsemouth) ; and he stayed along with Eochu until he was skilled in science.
II. One day the lad fared forth till he was on the brink of the sea - for the poets deemed that on the brink of water it was always a place of revelation of science. He heard a sound in the wave, to wit, a chant of wailing and sadness, and it seemed strange to him. So the lad cast a spell upon the wave, that it might reveal to him what the matter was. And thereafter it was declared to him that the wave was bewailing, his father Adnae, after his death and that Adnae's robe had been given to Ferchertne the poet, who had taken the ollaveship in place of Néde's father.
III. Then the lad went to his house and tells (all this) to his tutor, that is, to Eochu. And Eochu said to him :" Get thee to thy country now. Our two sciences have no room in one place ; for thy science shews clearly to thee that thou art an ollave in knowledge ".
IV. So Néde fared forward, and with him his three brothers, namely, Lugaid, Cairbre, Cruttíne. A bolg bélce (puffball) chanced (to meet) them on the path. Said one of them : " Why is it called bolg bélce ? " Since they know not, they went back to Eochu and remained a month with him. Again they fared on the path. A simind (rush) chanced to meet them. Since they knew not (why it was so called), they went back to their tutor. At the end of another month they set out (again) from him. A gass sanais (sprig of sanicle ?) chanced (to meet) them. Since they knew not why it was called gass sanais, they return to Eochu and remained another month with him.
V. Now when their questions had been solved for them, they proceeded to Cantire, and he afterwards went to Rind Snóc. Then from Port Ríg they passed over the sea till they landed at Rind Roisc: thence over Semne, over Latharna, over Mag Line, over Ollarba, over Tulach Roisc;, over .Ard slébe, over Craeb Selcha, over Mag Ercaite, over the (river) Bann, along, Uachtar, over Glenn Rige, over the Districts of the Húi Bresail, over Ard Sailech, which today is called Armagh, over the Sídhe [W. Stokes said "Elfmound" ] of Emain.
VI. Thus then went the youth, with a silvern branch above him; for this is what used to be above the anruths a branch of gold above the ollaves: a branch of copper over the rest of the poets.
VII. Then they go towards Emain Machae. And Nricriu chances (to meet) them on the green. He said to them that if they would give him his guerdon Néde would, through his advice and intercession, become the ollave of Ireland. So Néde gave him a purple tunic, with its adornment of gold and silver, and Bricriu told him to go and sit in the ollave's place. He also said that Ferchertne was dead, while (in fact) he was then to the north of Emain, leading (?) wisdom to his pupils.
VIII. And then Bricriu said: " No beardless man receives the ollaveship in Emain Machae", - for Néde was infantine (leg. boyish) as regards age. Néde takes his handful of grass, and casts a spell upon it, so that every one would suppose it was a beard that was on him. And he went and sat down on the ollave's chair, and took his robe around him. Three were the colors of the robe, to wit, a covering of bright bird's feathers in the middle : a showery speckling of findruine on the lower half outside, and a golden colour on the upper half.
IX. Thereafter Bricriu went to Ferchertne and said to him : " It were sad, O Ferchertne, that thou shouldst be put out of the ollaveship today ! A young honourable man has taken the ollaveship in Emain." Thereat Ferchertne was wroth, and he entered the palace, and stood on the floor with his hand en the beam. So that there he said : " Who is the poet, a poet ", etc.
X. Now the place of this Colloquy is Emain Machae. And the time of it is the time of Conchobar Mac Nessa. The author, then, is Néde son of Adnae of Connaught - or he is of the Tuatha dé Danann, as he says in the Colloquy (§§ 129, 130) " I am the son of Dán (Poetry ), Dán son of Osmenad (Scrutiny ), etc " and Ferchertne the poet of Ulster. The cause of composing it is that after Adnae's death his robe was conferred on Ferchertne by Medb and Ailill. So Adnae's son, Néde, came out of Scotland, (as we have said), to Emain, and sat on the ollave's chair; and Ferchertne entered the house, and said on seeing Néde:
1. Who is this poet, a poet round whom lies the robe with its splendour,
2. who would display himself after chanting poetry ?
3 According to what I see, (he is only) a pupil.
4 Of grass is the arrangement of his great beard.
5 In the place for chanting poetry who is this poet, a contentious poet ?
6 I never heard the secret of the sense of Adnae's son:
7 I never heard of him with ready knowledge.
8. A mistake, by (my) Ietters, is .Néde's seat !
9 This is an honorific speech which Néde uttered to Ferchertne :
SAID NÉDE
10. An ancient one, O my senior, every sage is a corrective sage.
11. A sage is the reproach of every ignorant person.
12. (But) before he knows wrath against us he should see what reproach, what (evil) sap (is in us).
13. Welcome is even the piercing sense of wisdom.
14. Slight is the blemish of a young man, unless his art be (rightly) questioned.
15. Step, chief (a more lawful way).
16. Thou shewest badly, thou hast shewn badly.
17. Thou yieldest to me very meagrely the food of learning.
18. I have drained the dug of a man goodly, treasurous.
SAID FERCHERTNE
I9. A question, O instructing lad, whence hast thou come ?
NÉDE ANSWERED
20. Not hard.(to say) from the heel of a sage,
21. from a confluence of wisdom,
22. from perfections of goodness,
23. from brightness of sunrise,
24. from the hazels of poetic art ,
25. from circuits of splendour,
26. out of which they measure truth according to excellences,
27. in which righteousness is taught,
28. in which falsehood sets,
29. in which colours are seen,
30. in which poems are freshened.
31. And thou, 0 my senior, whence hast thou come ?
FERCHERTNE ANSWERED
32. Not hard (to say): along the columns of age,
33. along the streams of Galion (Leinster),
34. along the Sídhe [W. Stokes said "Elfmound"] of Nechtan's wife,
35. along, the forearm of Nuada's wife,
36. along the land of the sun (science),
37. along the dwelling of the moon,
38 . along the young one's navel-string.
39. A question, O instructing lad, what is thy name ?
NÉDE ANSWERS
40. Not hard (to say): Very-small, very-great, very-bright (?), Very-hard.
41. Angriness of fire,
42. Fire of speech,
43. Noise of knowledge,
44. Well of wealth,
45. Sword of song,
46. Straight-artistic with bitterness (?) out of fire.
47. And thou , O my senior, what is thy name ?
FERCHERTNE ANSWERS
48 Not hard (to say): Nearest in omens.
49. Explanatory champion for declaration, (for) interrogatory.
50. Inquiry of science
51. Weft of art,
52. Casket of poetry,
53. Abundance from a sea.
54. A question, O instructing lad, what art dost thou practise ?
NÉDE ANSWERS
55. Not hard to say: reddening, a countenance
56. piercing flesh,
57. tingeing bashfulness,
58. tossing away shamelessness,
59. fostering poetry,
60. to searching for fame,
61. wooing science,
62. art for every mouth,
63. diffusing knowledge,
64. stripping speech,
65. in a little room,
66. a sage's cattle,
67. a stream of science
68 . abundant teaching,
69. smooth tales, the delight of kings.
70. And thou , O my senior, what art dost thou practise ?
FERCHERTNE ANSWERS
7I. hunting for support,
72. establishing peace,
73. arranging a troop 1,
74. tribulation of young men,
75. celebrating art,
76. a pallet with a king,
77. .... ing the Boyne,
78. briamon smetrach,
79. the shield of Athirne,
80. a share of new wisdom from the stream of science
81. fury of inspiration,
82. structure of mind,
83. art of small poems,
84. clear arrangement,
85. ruddy tales,
86. a celebrated road
87. a pearl in setting (?)
88. succouring sciences after a poem.
FERCHERTNE SAID
89. "A question, O instructing lad, what is it that thou undertakest ? "
NÉDE ANSWERS
90. Not hard (to say) : (to go) into the plain of age,
91. into the mountain of youth,
92. into the hunting of age,
93. into following a king (death ?),
94. into an abode of clay,
95. between candle and fire,
96. between battle and its horror;
97. among the mighty men of Tethra
98. among the stations of...
99. among the streams of knowledge.
100. And thou, O my sage, what is it that thou undertakest

[Fergus]

FERCHERTNE ANSWERS
100. (to go) into the mountain of rank;
101. into the communion of sciences,
102. into the lands of the men of knowledge,
103. into the breast of poetic revision,
104. into the inver of bounties ;
105. into the fair of the king's boar:
106. into the small respect of new men:
107. into the slopes of death (wherein is) abundance of great honours.
108. A question, 0 instructing lad, what is the path thou hast come ?'
NÉDE ANSWERS
109. Not hard (to say) on the white plain of knowledge,
110. on a king's beard:
111. on a wood of age:
112. on the back of the ploughing-ox :
113. on the light of a summer-moon:
114. on goodly cheeses (mast and fruit):
115. on dews of a goddess (corn and milk)
116. on scarcity of corn
117. on a ford (?) of fear
118. on the thighs of a goodly abode.
119. And thou, 0 my- senior, on what path hast thou come ?
FERCHERTNE ANSWERS
120. Not hard (to say) : on Lugh's horserod (?).
121. on the breasts of soft women:
122. on the hair of a wood:
123. on the head of a spear:
124. on a gown of silver:
125. on a chariot-frame without a tyre (?)
126. on a tyre without a chariot:
127. on the three ignorances of the Mac ind Óc.
128. And thou, 0 instructing lad, of whom art thou son ?
NÉDE ANSWERS
129. Not hard (to say): I am son of Poetry,
130. Poetry son of Scrutiny,
131. Scrutiny son of Meditation,
132. Meditation son of Lore,
133. Lore son of Enquiry,
134. Enquiry son of Investigation,
135. Investigation son of Great-Knowledge,
136. Great-Knowledge son of Great-Sense,
137. Great-Sense son of Understanding,
138. Understanding son of Wisdom,
139. Wisdom, son of the three gods of Poetry.
140. And thou, 0 my senior, whose son art thou ?
FERCHERTNE ANSWERS
141. Not hard (to say): I am son of the man who has been and was not born :
142. he has been buried in his mother's womb:
143. he has been baptized after death:
144. his first presence, death, betrothed him:
145. the first utterance of every living one:
146. the cry of every dead one:
147. lofty A is his name.
148. A question, O instructing lad, hast thou tidings ?
NÉDE ANSWERS
149. There are indeed: good tidings:
150. sea fruitful,
151. strand overrun,
152. woods smile,
153. wooden blades flee,
154. fruit-trees flourish (?)
155. cornfields grow,
156. bee swamrs are many,
157. a radiant world,
158. happy peace,
159. kindly summer,
160. armies with pay,
161. sunny kings,
162. wondrous wisdom,
163. battle goes away,
164. every one to his (own) art,
165. men to valour,
166. needlework for women,
167. munbrec láith,
168. treasures laugh,
169. valour abundant,
170. every art complete,
171. fair every good man,
172. good every tiding,
173. tidings good.
174. And thou, O my senior, hast thou tidings ?

[Fergus]

FERCHERTNE ANSWERS
175. I have indeed: tidings terrible evil the time which will always be: wherein chiefs will be many, wherein honours will be few: the living will quash fair judgments.
176. The cattle of the world will be barren.
177. Men will cast off modesty.
178. The champions of great lords will go.
179. Men will be bad: (lawful) kings will be few: usurpers will be many
180. Disgraces will be crowds: every man will be blemished.
181. Chariots will perish along the race-course.
182. Foes will consume Niall's plains.
183. Truth will not safeguard wealth (excellence ?)
184. Sentries round churches will be fought.
185. Every art will be buffoonery
186. Every falsehood will be chosen.
187. Every one will pass out of his (proper) state through pride and arrogance, so that neither rank nor (old) age, nor honour, nor dignity, nor art, nor instruction will be served.
188. Every skilful person will be broken.
189. Every king will be a pauper.
190. Every noble will be contemned: every baseborn will be set up, so that neither God nor man will be worshipped.
191. (Lawful) princes will perish before usurpers by oppressions (?) of the men of the black spears.
192. Belief will be destroyed.
193. Offerings will be disturbed.
194. Floors will gone under (by housebreakers).
195. Cells will be undermined.
196. Churches will be burnt.
197. Niggardly storerooms will be laid waste.
198. Inhospitality will destroy flowers.
199. Though false judgments fruits will fall.
200. His path (in winter to his hospitallers) will perish for every one.
201. Hounds will inflict conflicts on bodies, so that every one will ... upon his following through darkness and grudge and niggardliness.
202. At the end of the final world (there will be) a refuge to poverty and stinginess and grudging.
203. Many controversies (will there be) with artists.
204. Every one will buy a lampooner to lampoon on his behalf.
205. Every one will impose a limit on another.
206. On every hilltop treachery will adventure, so that neither bed nor oath will protect.
207. Every one will hurt his neighbour: so that every brother will betray another.
208. Every one will slay his companion at drinking-together and eating-together, so that there will be neither truth nor honour nor soul there.
209. niggards will shrivel (?) one another for their number.
210. usurpers will satirise one another with storm of every darkness.
211. Ranks will be spilt: clericisms will be forgotten: sages will be despised.
212. Music will turn into boors.
213. Championship will turn to cells and clerics.
214. Wisdom will be turned into false judgments.
215. A lord's law will turn upon the Church.
216. Evil will pass into the points of croziers.
217. Every sexual connexion will turn into adultery.
218. Great pride and great free-will will turn into the sons of peasants and churls.
219. Great niggardise and great inhospitality and great penuriousness will turn into landholders, so that their poems will be dark.
220. Great skill in embroidery will pass to fools and harlots, so that garments will be expected without colours.
221. Wrong judgments will pass into kings and lords.
222. Undutifulness and anger will pass into every one's mind, so that neither bondslaves nor handmaids will serve their masters; so that neither kings nor lords will hear the prayers of their tribes or their judgments; so that the erenaghs [managers of church lands] will not listen to their tenants and their communities; so that the tributary will not endure (to pay) compensation to his lord for his due; so that the ecclesiastical tenant will not serve from his property his church and his lawful abbot; so that the wife will not endure her first-husband's word over her; so that the sons and daughters will not serve their fathers or their mothers; so that pupils will not rise up (respectfully) before their teachers.
223. Every one will turn his art into false teaching and false intelligence, to seek to surpass his teacher; so that the junior may like to be seated while his senior is above his head (standing), so that it will be no shame with king or lord who shall go to special eating or special drinking in front of his comrade who will serve him, or in front of his retinue and his company which will come to him; so that there will be no shame with a farmer who is eating after closing his house against the artist who sells his honour and his soul for a cloak and for food: so that every one at special eating and special drinking will turn his cheek to his comrade; so that greed will fill every human being: so that the proud man will sell his honour and his soul for the price of one scruple.
224. Modesty will be cast off: folks will be contemned: lords will be destroyed: ranks will be despised: Sunday will be degraded: Ietters will be forgotten: poets will not be produced.
225. Righteousness will be removed: false judgments will be manifested by the usurpers of the final world: fruits after appearing will be burnt up by a flood of outlanders and rabble.
226. 0n every territory will be an excessive number.
227. Districts will be extended into uplands.
228. Every forest will become a great plain: every great plain will become a forest.
229. Every one will slave with all his family.
230 Thereafter will come many hurtful diseases: sudden awful tempests: lightning with cries of trees (struck by thunderbolts).
231. winter leafy, summer gloomy, autumn without crops, spring without flowers
232. Mortality with famine.
233. Diseases on cattle: bedgacha (staggers ?), scamacha, murrains, dropsies, milliuda, lumps, agues.
234. Estrays without profit: hiding-places without treasures: great goods without men (to consume them)
235. Extinction of championship.
236. Failure on cornfields.
237. Perjurers.
238. Judgments with anger.
239. A death of three days and three nights on two thirds of human beings.
240. A third of those plagues on beasts of sea and forest.
241. Then will come seven years after lamentation.
242. Flowers will perish.
243. In every house there will be wailing.
244. Outlanders will consume the plain of Erin.
245. Men will tend men.
246. A conflict will go round Cnámchoill.
247. Fair stammerers will be slain.
248. Daughters will conceive to their fathers.
249. Contests will be fought round famous places.
250. There will be desolation round the heights of the Isle of meadowy plains.
251. The sea will break over every country at inhabiting the Land of Promise.
252. Ireland will be left seven years before the Judgment.
253. It will be mournful after slaughters.
254. Thereafter will come the signs of Antichrist's birth.
255. In every tribe monsters will be born.
256. Streampools will turn against streams.
257. Horsedung (?) will turn into gold-colours.
258. Water will turn into tastes wine.
259. Mountains will turn into perfect lands.
260. Bogs will turn into flowery clover.
261. Swarms of bees will be burnt among uplands.
262. The floodtides of the sea will delay from one day to another.
263. Thereafter seven dark years will come.
264. They will hide the lamps of heaven.
265. At the perishing of the world they will go into the presence of Judgment.
266. It will be the Judgment, my son. Great tidings, awful tidings, an evil time !
267. Said Ferchertne: Knowest thou, O little (in age), great (in knowledge), O son of Adnae, who is above thee ?
NÉDE ANSWERS
268. Easy (to say). I know my God creative.
269. l know my wisest of prophets.
270. I know my hazel of poetry.
271. I know my mighty God.
272. I know that Ferchertne is a great poet and a prophet.
273. The lad then kneels to him. Thereat Néde flings to Ferchertne the poet's robe, which he put from him, and he rose out of the poet's seat, wherein he was, to cast himself under Ferchertne's feet. Thereupon Ferchertne said:
DIXIT FERCHERTNE
274. Stay, 0 little (in age), great (in knowledge), son of Adnae !
DIXIT FERCHERTNE
275. Said Ferchertne: Stay then, thou poet great, to wit, in science, O son of Adnae ! mayst thou be magnified (.and) glorified !
276. mayst thou be famous (and) adorned in the opinion of man and God !
277. mayst thou be a casket of poetry !
278. mayst thou be a king's arm !
279. mayst thou be a rock of ollaves !
280. mayst thou be the glory of Emain !
281. mayst thou be the higher than every one !
SAID NÉDE
282 Mayst thou thyself be so (?) under the same title ! a tree of one butt: he is at the same time a male (?) without destruction.
283. a casket of poetry:
284. an expression of new wisdom: he is the intellect of the perfect folk: father by son: son by father.
285. Three fathers are read of therein, to wit, a father in age, a fleshly father, a father of teaching.
286. My fleshly father remains not.
287. My father of teaching is not in presence.
288. 'Tis thou art my father in age.
289. I acknowledge thee as such (?)
Mayst thou thyself be it (?)
FINIT AMEN.


____________________________________________________
Sources : The Colloquy of the two sages, edited and translated by Whitley Stokes
Ed. Librairie Emile Bouillon, Paris - 1905

[Fergus]

S'il y a un (ou une) volontaire pour assurer une nouvelle traduction, voici le texte original :


IMMACALLAM IN DA THUARAID

I. Adna mac Uthidir de Thuathaib Olnecmacht, ollam hErenn i n-ésci 7 filidecht. Atacomnaic mac laiside .i. Néde [mac Adnai R.] Luid iarum in mac sin do foglaim écsi i n-Albain co Eochu Echbél, 7 ro bùi i farrad Echach cor’bo eolach i n-écsi.
II. Luis laa and in gilla co mbùi for brù mara, ar bà baile fallsigthe éicsi dogrés lasna filedu for brù usci. Co cuala in gilla fogur isin tuind .i. Corus cainiunda 7 torsi, 7 bà ingnad leis. Rola iarum in gilla bricht forsin tuind, co ro fallsiged do cid rom-boi. Co tàrfas do iarsain conid ac càiniud a athar [iarna ecaib, R] ro bùi in tond, 7 co tucad a thuignech do Ferchertne file, 7 ro gab ollamnas i n-inad a athar-som .i. Adnai.
III. Luid iarum in gilla dia thaig 7 adfét dia aite .i. Do Echaid. Ocus asbert side fris : eirg do[t] tir i fecht-sa : ni thalla adar n-ésci ar ndis i n-oen-bale, uair forosnài th’eicsi duit it ollam ar eolas.
IV. Luid iarum Neide reme 7 a thri brathir leis .i. Lugaid, Cairpre, Cruttine. Docuridar bolc belce doib for conair. Asbert fer dib : cid dia n-apar bolc belce (i. Bélchéo) ? Uair na fetatar lotar for culu co Echaid co mbàtar mis aice. Lotar for conair doridis. Docuridar simind doib. Asbert fer dib : cid dia n-apar semind (.i. seim co hind). Uair na fetatar, lotar for culu co a n-aiti. Documlat ùad i cind mis aile. Docuridar gass sanais doib. Uair na fetatar cid dia n.epar gas sanais (.i. a sianas) tiagait for culu co Echaid, co mbatar mis aile aca.
V. O ro ictha doib trà a cesta documlaiset do Chind Tire, 7 luid iarsin do Rind Snoc. Documlaiset iarum a Purt Rig dar fairgi corra-gabad ir-Rind Roiss : assaide for Semniu, for Latharnu, for Mag Line, for Ollarbai, for Tulaig Roisc, for Ard Slébe, for Cràib Telcha, for Mag n-Ercaite, for Banna, iar n-Uactur, for Gland Rige, for Tuathaib hUa mBresail, for Ard Sailech fris’raiter Ard Macha indiu, for Sidbruig na hEmna.
VI. Is amlaid dano documlai in mac, 7 craeb airgdide uaso, uair issed no bid uasna hanrothaib. Craeb oir immorro ollamnaib. Craeb umai [immorro no bid R] uasna filedaib archena.
VII. Documlat iarum dochum Emna Machae, Docuridar dano Bricriu doib forsind [f]aithche. Asbert-saide friu dia tuc-tais a log do ropad Néde bad ollam hErenn, triana chomairle 7 triana impide. Dobert Neide lenid corcra do, cona cumtuch oir 7 argait. Asbert Bricriu ris dula ce ro suided i n-inud ollaman, 7 asbert riss ba marb Fercbertni. Ocus ba hand bai-side, fri Emain atuaid oc tuidecht écsi dia écsinib.
VIII. Ocus asbert dano Bricriu ni geib fir amulchach ollamnacht i n-Emuin Macha, ar ba naidenta som arai n-aisi. Gabais Neide làn a duirn dond [f]eor, 7 focbeirt bricht fair, conid ed dommuned cach ba ulcha bai far. Ocus luid co ndessid i cathair ollaman 7 gabais a thugnig imme. Tri datha na tugnigi .i. Tugi do ittib én ngel ar medon : frosbrechtad findruine for ind leith ichtarach dianectair, 7 fordath fororda for ind leith uachtarach.
IX. Luid Bricriu iarsain co Ferchertni 7 asbert ris : Ba dirsan [duit R], a Ferchertni, do chor a hollomnacht indiu ! Ro gab fer oc airmitnech [amulchach R] ollamnacht i n-Emuin. Ba lond Ferchertne fri side ; ocus luid is’tech rigda, co mbai forsin irlar 7 a lam forsin gabail. Conid and asbert : Ciasu file, fili.
X. Loc tra dond immacallaim sea Emain Macha. Amser dano di amser Conchobair maic Nessa. Persa dano Nede mac Adnai de Chonnachtaib, no is de Thuathaib dé Donann do, amail atbeir issind immacallaim : Mac-sa Dana, Dan mac Osmenta 7c. Ocus Ferchertne fili do Ultaib, Tucait a denma .i. Tuignech Adnai do thabairt do Ferchertni o Meidb 7 o Ailill iar n-éc Adnai. Co tanic Neide mac Adnai a hAlpain, amail atrubrammar, co hEmain, co ndessid i cathair ollaman, co toracht Ferchertne istech, 7 co n-epert ic fascin Nédi :
1.Ciasu fili, fili imma li[g] tugen cona ili ?
2. Dodonairb iar cetul chreth ?
3. La decim felmac
4. Fér des rogreinde
5. I n-airm chreth chetail. Ciasu file, file neit ?
6. Ni chuala cuic n-inne maicc Adnai
7. Ni chuala co solmfis
8. Mell suide dar ninu Néde.
9. Rad n-onorda inso atbert Néde fri Ferchertne :
Dixit Nede10. Arsan, a mmo sruith, sui coisc cach sui.
11. Sui cech ainb aisc
12 arsecha riasiu ro fiastar [feirg frind Y] cia aisc cia sug.
13. Fochen cid sathchiall suthe.
14. Séim anim ocnait mani chiastar ceird.
15. Cing mal.
16. Mithadbait, mitharfaid,
17. Domairbir fiad fath cor-rubec
18. Roselai delai fir muaid moinig
Dixit Ferchertne19. Ceist, a gillai forcitail, can dodechadsu ?
Respondit Nede20. Ni ansa : a sail suad,
21. a commur gaise,
22. a forbthib fio,
23. al-luachair throgain,
24. a caillib crinmond,
25. a cuardaib âne,
26. as [a] midetar fir iar febaib,
27. i forcantar firinne,
28. i funethar go,
29. i fegaither datha,
30. i nuigter dâna.
31. Os tussu, a mmo sruith, can dollod ?
Respondit Ferchertne32. Ni ansa. Iar colomnaib àise,
33. Iar srothaib Galion,
34. Iar sid mnâ Nechtain,
35. Iar rig mnâ Nuadat,
36. Iar futhiur gréne,
37. Iar n-adbai êscai,
38. Iar srinci ôic.
39. Cest, a gillai forcitail, cia th'ainm-siu ?
Respondit Néde40. Ni ansa. Robec. Romor. Rothet. Rochtot.
41. Rosre tened,
42. Tene feth,
43. Fogroll sêse,
44. Sopor somma,
45. Slocreth dàna
46. Droncherdach co teinm a tein.
47.Os tussu, a mmo sruith, cia do ainm-siu ?
Respondit Ferchertne48. Ni ansa : Nessu célaib,
49. Cur fethach foaisnis freisnis,
50. Fochmorc foruis,
51. Fithe cerda,
52. Comrar dana,
53. Dramm de muir
54. Cest, a gillai forcitail, cia dàn dognisiu ?
Respondit Néde55. Ni ansa : romna rossa,
56. Rind feola
57. Fonoch feile
58. Foscnad anbli,
59. Altram creth,
60. Cluith do thur,
61. Tochmarc fàth,
62. Cerd cach mbel,
63. Bruud n-immais,
64. Imscothud n-insci,
65. Imscing bic,
66. Bùar sùad,
67. Sruth fàil,
68. Forcital n-imda
69. Ail rig risi réde.
70. Os tussu, a mmo sruith, cia dàn dognisiu ?
Respondit Ferchertne71. Ni ansa : foram cotaith
72. costud sîda,
73. srethad fairne,
74. fochoid ocnoe,
75. noud cerda,
76. cossair oc rig
77. riascad Boinne,
78. briamon smethrach,
79. sciath Aithirni
80. erraind nais a sruth buais,
81. barand immais,
82. aicde menman,
83. minairbe cerd,
84. costud réil,
85. rissi ruada,
86. rout noithe,
87. némain i fothud,
88. furiud fàth iar nath.
Dixit Ferchertne89. Cest, a gillai forcitail, cid fotlaimthersu ?
Respondit Néde90. Ni ansa : i mmag n-aesa,
91. i sliab n-oited,
92. i fiadach n-aise,
93. il-luna thréith,
94. i n-[adbai] n-othrai [leg. othnai],
95. etir othain 7 acenn,
96. etir cath 7 a fuath,
97. etir triunu Tethrach,
98. etir sostu siloin,
99. etir sruthu iuil.
100. Os tussu, a mmo sruith, cid fot-laimther so ?

[Fergus]

Respondit Ferchertne100. I sliab ngraid,
101. i commuin fàth,
102. i fuithriu aesa iuil,
103. i n-ucht n-osnai,
104. i n-inber raithe,
105. i n-oenach tuirc thréith,
106. i fochataid fer nai,
107. i fanu folerbad fal romiad.
108. Ceist, a gillai forcetail, cisi chonar dollodsu ?
Respondit Néde109. Ni ansa : for clar find fessa,
110. for ul tréith,
111. for fidrad n-ais,
112. for drumni daim inn air,
113. for soilsi samluain,
114. for maethla matha,
115. for druc[h]tu dea,
116. for unce n-etha,
117. for ath n-uamain,
118. for sliastai sadbai.
119. Os tussu, a mmo sruith, cisi chonar dollodsu ?
Respondit Ferchertne120. Ni ansa : for echlaim Loga,
121. for luani ban maeth,
122. for folt feda,
123. for cend gnai,
124. for fuan n-argit,
125. for creitt cen fonnad,
126. for fonnad cen chul,
127. for tri anfessa Maic ind Oic.
128. Ceist, a gillai forcetail, cia doaisiu mac ?
Respondit Nede129. Ni ansa : macsa Dana,
130. Dàn mac Osmenta,
131. Osmenad mac Imrati,
132. Imradud mac Rofis,
133. Rofis mac Fochmairc,
134. Fochmarc mac Rochmairc,
135. Rochmarc mac Rofessa,
136. Rofis mac Rochuind,
137. Rochond mac Ergnai,
138. Ergna mac Ecnai,
139. Ecna mac na tri nDea nDàna.
140. Os tussu, a mmo sruith, cia doaisiu [mac] ?
Respondit Ferchertne141. Ni ansa : macsa fir ro bùi, nad ro genair,
142. aradnacht i mbrù a mathar,
143. ro basted iarna écaib,
144. arannaisc a chétgnùis,
145. cétlabad cech bi,
146. iachtad cech mairb,
147. Ailm irard a ainm,
148. Ceist, a gillai forcitail, in filet scela latsu ?
Respondit Nede : 149. Filet écin, scéla mathi,
150. muir thoirthech,
151. tracht ruirthech,
152. tibit fidraid,
153. techait fidlaind,
154. fechait oblaind,
155. asait ithgoirt,
156. ili bethamain,
157. bith sorchi,
158. sid subach,
159. sam sogar,
160. sluaig rathaig,
161. rig griandai,
162. gais adamrai,
163. echtraid cath,
164. càch dia, cheird,
165. fir do gail,
166. grés for mnà,
167. munbrec làith,
168. mùin[i] gàrit,
169. laith làn,
170. làn cach cerdd,
171. càin cach fo,
172. fo cach scél,
173. scéla mathe,
174. Os tussu, a mmo sruith, in filet scela latso ?

[Fergus]

Respondit Ferchertne175. Filet écin scéla uatha, olc amser bith-bias, i mbiat ile cenna, i mbiat uate enig[e], arbebat bi ba[n]messu.
176. Biaid bùar in domain dithoraid.
177. Dichrechnaigfit fir feile.
178. Friscichset midaig morflathe.
179. Biat olca fir. Biat uati rig. Biat ile anflatha.
180. Bit dala athisi. Bit ainmech cech duni.
181. Dobebat iar cuirriuch carpait.
182. Conmelat namait Niallmaige.
183. Ni ain fir febais.
184. Fessaitir im chella cathasa.
185. Bid furside cech dàn.
186. Bid furglide cech go.
187. Ragaid cech oen assa richt la uall 7 dimmus, cona fogentar feb, na haes, na enech, na hordan, na dàn, na forcital.
188. Forbrisfider cech trebar.
189. Bid pauper cech ri.
190. Dimicnigfider cech saér. Conutastar cech doér. Cona aderthar dia na dune.
191. Dobebat flathi ria n-anflathib la fursmalta fer ndugba[e].
192. Dobaifither cretem.
193. Rofuasnabthar adbarta.
194. Focichsiter solaig.
195. Docichliter cella.
196. Forloscfiter ecailsi.
197. Arfàssaigfiter culi cessachtaig.
198. Ardibdaba dochell blatha.
199. Art[o]itsat toraid [tria] audbretha.
200. Adbeba cach à choi.
201. Focichret for collaib coin congala, co tossnofa càch for a dàim tria duba 7 dibi 7 dothchernas.
202. Attach ndaidbri 7 dibi 7 dothchernais fri diaid in domain dedenaig.
203. Dâla ile fri aes cerd.
204. Fochiura càch cainte do chàniud dar a chend.
205. Dobéra cach crich for araile;
206. Echtrannfaid felle for cach dind, connach ain lepaid na luge.
207. Lénfaid cach a chomaithech, co mera cach brathair araile.
208. Gênaid cach a choimthechtaid di chomol 7 comlongud, conna bia fir na enech na hanim and.
209. Immuscredfaifet duth[ch]emai.
210. Immusnaerfat anflathi la anfeth cach duba[i].
211. Doirfiter grada, dorromnaibter clerchechta, dimicnigfiter suid.
212. Soifit ceoil co bachlachu.
213. Soifid fiannas i celle 7 i cleirchiu.
214. Soifithir ecna i ssàib[b]retha.
215. Soifid dliged flatha for eclais.
216. Soifid annach i coraib bachall.
217. Soifid cech lanamnas i n-adaltras.
218. Soifid roùall (.i. sechtair) ocus roimtholtu i mmaccu aithech.
219. Soifid rodibi 7 rodochell 7 rochessacht i coairti, co mbat duba a n-dana.
220. Soifid rodruine i n-onmite 7 athchessa, co sailfiter etaige cen liga.
221. Soifid esbretha ir-rigu 7 tigernu.
222. Soifid digaire 7 rosire i mmenmain cech dune, conna fogenat mogaid na cumala a comdedu, conna cechlat rig nach a cocerta, conna coistifet ind airchinnig fria manchu 7 a mmuntera, conna fodéma in cisaige éraic a dligid dia flaith, conna fogéna in manach dia dilius, cona fodema in ben brethir a cétmuntire uaste, conna fogenat maic 7 ingena a n-athre nach a mmathre, cona urerset felmaic a fithithre.
223. Soifid cach a dàn i sàibforcital 7 i saiintliucht do chungid derscaigthe dia fithithir, corop maith lasin sosar bith ina suidiu 7 a sinser uas a chind. Cona ba imdergad lasin rig no lassin tigerna ragas do sainol no sainithe arbelaib a chele fodngena, no arbelaib a dàmi 7 a thascuir dodisia, cona ba imdergad lasin fer trebtha bith ic longud iar n-iadad a thaige frisin fir cerdda renas a ainech a anmain ar bratt 7 ar biad, consaife.càch a oil fria cheile oc sainol 7 oc sainithe, collinfa rosant cach nduine, co rirfe in fer uallach a enech 7 a anmain ar log oenscripuill.
224. Dichrechnaigfither fele, dinsémtair popuil, dibdabtair flathi, dinsémtair gradai, digradaigfider dommach, diromnaiber littre, dichlannaigfiter filid.
225. Forbuascaigfider firinni. Forosnaibter gùbretha in domain dedenaig. Forlocsfiter torthi tadbsiu la tola n-echtrand 7 daescarsluàg.
226. Biaid forlucht for cach bruig.
227. Brogfaiter cricha ir-roilbi
228. Bid romag cach rofid. Bid rofid cach romag.
229. Arfogena cach lin a muntire.
230. Ticfait airsein tedmand ili ancride, at[h]cha ellma uathmara, lochait bl[o]edmand crand.
231. Gaim dullech, sam dubach, fochmuine cen messu, errach cen blathu.
232. Marta la nuna.
233. Tedmand for cethraib, bedcacha, scamacha, boara, comalla, milliuda, cnuicc, crithcha.
234. Frithi cen torbai, foilge cen moene, mormathi cen doene.
235. Cumsunnud fiansa.
236. Falla for ethaib.
237. éithchecha.
238. Cocerta co feirg.
239. Tonnad tri la 7 teora n-aidche for da trian doine.
240. Trian na plag hi sein for mila mara 7 fidbaide.
241. Ticfat iarsin secht mbliadna iar ngubai.
242. Iarmibebat blatha.
243. Biaid gol cach clethi.
244. Conmelat echtrainn hErennmag.
245. Arfoichlifet fir firu.
246. Friscich comrac im Chnàmchaill.
247. Coniuratar guit bàin.
248. Conberat dia n-aithre[ib] ingena.
249. Confirtet[at] im chlotha congala.
250. Confasaigfither im arda Insi iathmaigi.
251. Mebais trethan dar cach tir la aittreib Tiri Tarngere.
252. Doleicfider hEriu .uii. Mbliadna ria mbrath.
253. Bronfaid iar n-araib.
254. Ticfat iarsain airde geine Ancrist.
255. Gignitir in cach thuaith toraithair.
256. Tosoifet fria sruthu sruthlinne.
257. Suifid aicde i n-ordathu.
258. Suifid usce i finblassu.
259. Suifid antrenna i n-oglanna.
260. Suifid mona hi scothsemmair.
261. Forloiscfitir etir slebib sathemain.
262. Arfuirset tuli mara on trath co araile.
263. Ticfait iarsain .uii. [M]bliadna dorcha.
264. Docelat lesbaire nime.
265. La dibad in domuin docichset i mbeolu bratha.
266. Bid brath, a meicc ; mora scela, scela huatha, olcc amser.
Dixit Ferchertne267. Ferchertne dixit : Cest, in fetarsu, a bic, moir, a maic Adnai, cia fil huasut ?
Respondit Nede268. Ni ansa. Fetar mo dia dulech
269. Fetar mo rus faithi.
270. Fetar mo choll creth.
271. Fetar mo Dia tren.
272. Fetar rofili faith Fercheirdne.
273. Slechtoig an gilla do iarum. Lasin fochard Neidhe fri Fercertne in tuighen filedh do chur de, 7 adrecht asin suidhe filed a roibe die teilgiud fo chosoip Feircertne, co n-eibert Fercertne.
Dixit Ferchertne274. Fosaigthe, a bic, moir, meic Adnai... (treize et omis) [fo. 62b2] Ferchertne dixit : fosaigthi tra, a fili moir .i. i n-eolas, a maic Adnai ... (neuf et omis)
275. Robat mochta indocbaithe,
276. Robat clothach cumtachta la duini ocus Dia, (sept et omis)
277. rob comrar dana.
278. rop doe rig.
279. ropo àil olloman.
280. roba orddan nEmna.
281. ropo airddiu cach.
Dixit Nede282. Immusbé fadein fon oen garmaim, crann n-oenbona, bid onme moth cen choscrad.
283. Comrar dana.
284. Airbertad naiss, is etargna in aes forbthe. Athair la mac, mac la athair.
285. Tri aithir legaitir ann .i. Athair aesse, athair collaide, athair forcitail.
286. Nad mair mo athair collaide
287. Nad fail mo aite (athair) forcitail hi frecnarcus.
288. Is tu[sa] mo athair aisse.
289. Atadomu ind imbé. Immusbe fadein.
FINIT

[Rónán]

Je comprends un mot sur deux ou sur trois... (mais avec un dico, ca irait peut-etre mieux). Dommage qu´il y ait des accents graves au lieu des accents aigus, d´où tires-tu cette édition?

IMMACALLAM IN DA THUARAID

I. Adna mac Uthidir de Thuathaib Olnecmacht, ollam hErenn i n-ésci 7 filidecht.

Je traduis (sans regarder celle en français ou en anglais, pê qu'il y aura des fautes...):

> Adna fils de Uthider des tribus d'Olnecmacht, savant d'Irlande sur la poésie et la poésie (je ne connais pas la différence de sens entre ésce et filidecht).
(en moderne: Adhna mac Uithidhir de thuaith Oilneagmhacht, ollamh na hÉireann in éigse agus i bhfilíocht.)

Luid iarum in mac sin do foglaim écsi i n-Albain co Eochu Echbél, 7 ro bùi i farrad Echach cor’bo eolach i n-écsi

Ce fils est parti ensuite apprendre la poésie en Ecosse, chez Eochu Echbél (bouche de cheval ), et il était en compagnie d'Echach jusqu'a ce qu'il soit savant en poésie.

(en moderne: iaramh chuaigh an mac sin a dh´fhoghlaim éigse in Albain chuig Eochaidh Eachbhéal, agus bhí sé i bhfarradh Eachaigh (?) go raibh sé eolach in éigse)

Ca me fait tjrs bizarre de lire de l´irlandais ancien: c fou comme les mots ont changé. Enfin, c comme entre latin et français remarque...


Bendacht

Rónán

[Lilou]

Lilou,
Oui, pourquoi cherches-tu une autre édition de ce texte difficile ? Aurais-tu découvert des fautes de traduction ? Les commentaires te semblent-ils trop pauvres, ou stupides ? Les écrits de Guyonvarc'h ne sont pas vérités d'Evangile, mais encore faut-il les avoir lus, et étayer sa critique éventuelle...
Il n'y a jamais eu aucune autre traduction française du Dialogue des Deux Sages.
On trouve facilement la version anglaise, traduite de l'irlandais ancien (ou moyen, Ronan rectifiera) par Whitley Stokes.

Je trouve cette traduction parfaite (enfin j'imagine vu que je sais pas lire l'original) et le travail d'analyse parfait .
Pourquoi donc alors ? parceque je pense qu'un seul homme ne peut pas tout voir, tout comprendre, tout savoir. Je trouve le travail de Guyonvarc'h avec cet ouvrage tres tres bien, mais cela ne veut pas dire qu'il a tout vu, tout compris.
Une autre analyse peut porter un autre angle, une autre question. L'union fait la force y compris dans la quête des textes. Personne n'est infaillible quand même ! ? et je me demandais s'il n'existait pas un autre bijou quitte à tomber sur un navet, mais on a toujours le choix d'en mettre un sur la bibliotheque et l'autre à la cave pour les souris.

je lis le français et l'anglais, alors merci c'est exactement le genre de renseignement que je recherchais

[Rónán]

Pr le terme irlandais ancien, en fait, on a trois termes:
vieil-irlandais
moyen-irlandais
irlandais ancien, qui signifie vieil-irlandais + moyen-irlandais (y a pas énormémt de différences entre les deux finalement).
En anglais: Old Irish, Middle Irish, et Early Irish qd on parle des deux à la fois.

Difficile de reconnaitre le vieil- du moyen-irlandais, franchement. Y a quelques caractéristiques, mais si on tombe sur des phrases où ces caractéristiques st pas représentées, on peut pas savoir



Rónán

[mikhail]

Lilou,

Sais-tu que les ouvrages de Guyonvarc'h sont en réalité le fruit de Monsieur et Madame ? Lui est un linguiste celtisant, né dans le Morbihan et bretonnant de naissance ; il sait le gallois et surtout c'est le spécialiste du gaélique ancien, ce qui est très ardu comme il le laisse entendre.
Mais en plus, son épouse est spécialiste d'histoire des religions.
Cela veut dire que tous leurs textes sont non seulement des traductions, les plus scientifiques et les plus exactes possibles dans l'état actuel de la science philologique et linguistique, car appuyées sur d'autres traductions antérieures minutieusement vérifiées et comparées au texte gaélique, mais aussi une étude du contenu, du texte lui-même : que contient-il, que signifie-t-il ? Car pour la plupart, ce sont des textes à contenu religieux, avec une valeur traditionnelle (au sens de René Guénon du mot "tradition").

En effet, il ne suffit pas de traduire un texte d'une langue dans une autre, quelle qu'en soit la facilité ou la difficulté, l'intérêt est ensuite de pouvoir étudier ce texte, son contenu et sa signification, dans notre langue maternelle à nous, que nous possédons bien (en principe...)

mikhail

[Lilou]

Je connais très bien les ouvrages de Monsieur et Madame et aussi les travaux du père de Madame.
D'être un humain génial ne fait pas un faiseur de bible.

J'aime comprendre, chercher l'anti these de la these, j'aime chercher, et pas apprendre par coeur, j'aime chicaner et contrecarrer. Ca fait avancer le monde et les idées, la recherche et les croyances

J'ai un peu l'impression de poser des questions idiotes (BAtz) et de passer pour une infidele si je n'ai pas pour bible le "Druides" de G & L. j'ai un peu peur soudain

Rassurez moi ou fichez moi dehors
S'il faut apprendre par coeur ce livre et le prendre pour parole d'evangile et non pas base de travail, je file